From: the guppy<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

DubalPoet---might be a better forum out there for you to express religious beliefs...lest you start off-topic debate...and you might want to rephrase things like "could of" to "could have"<BR>
<BR>
gup
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From: Elaina<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

Ali~ 'My Eyes' really beautiful, I related to everything...wonderful. Glad to see you're feeling better. I missed you tons!!!<BR>
<BR>
me aka niki~ 'Where are you...' truly heartfelt, 'one last chance' and 'in the end' short and sweet.  I seem to have a problem writing just a little, I always seem to have so much to say. Well done.<BR>
<BR>
xoxo<BR>
elaina
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From: silent voice<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

Elaina, Ali and aka nikki appear to have a threesome praising party going on. <BR>
<BR>

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From: Galadrial<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

<BR>
Morning Gup-ster...<BR>
<BR>
        Well, you have a problem when dealing with the universal in poetry---I call it the "big C"---cliche. The first obstacle I usually encounter in teaching is "unteaching" my students. Poetry needs to be written in your own voice---using words and expressions that you would include in your normal conversation. Yours happens to be a pure stream of internal dialogue that I find endlessly fascinating!<BR>
<BR>
        When you've been around poetry a bit, you can tell a lot from a poem. Word choice will almost always give you an age for the writer, and not just the words---but how they are used. Beginning writers are very tentative---they tend to use generalities, usually with the intention of reaching for universal. They have not read as much---and reading is key to developing writing skills. When I first started poetry---at about 12, I was terrified of plagerism...(12 year olds are goofy, what can I say?)so I decided to not read anything...strange logic. <BR>
<BR>
            The trouble is---I loved reading...and when I did it, I saw how others used language...and it widened my word palatte, so to speak.......<BR>
<BR>
            more later......child is running late!<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
                                       Gala
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From: Angel<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

Just adding my two cents...I think that Universal can be written in 'your own voice'...after all, as humans, don't we all tend to experience pretty much the same emotions? But,I think what Kirk and Guppy are speaking of is to lessen submissions that appear to be excerpts right from ones diary. The reader is seeking to connect with something in what he is reading and if it is too personal it is like being in a conversation about another's health...BORING. <BR>
<BR>
Oh and I am really enjoying this deeper discussion into writing techniques...keep it coming.<BR>
<BR>
And Gala...a *GREAT BIG CONGRATULATIONS TO YOU* :)
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From: Elaina<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

silent voice~<BR>
I really don't know what your problem is because you have been attacking me since your name first appeared on the board. I simply comment on the work that I read, and I admit it when I am in a hurry I sometimes only read work by Ali, and me aka niki, not because I favor them but because I feel like I closly relate to their work more than others. Another thing who are you to say that we can't compliment each other, and I know for a fact that 'niki' and Ali compliment a ton on other work here, I see it all the time, and maybe if you would actually say something nice to someone you'd get someone talking to you...don't waste my flavor, because you're a little jealous.  Just worry about yourself.<BR>
xoxo<BR>
elaina
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From: silent voice<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

No attack, Elaina. Does appear cliquish, though.
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From: me aka niki<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

 2 Silent voice~ Why did you make that remark about Ali, Elaina and I?<BR>
It's seems that you don't wont us to say something nice to each other<BR>
I must say I compliment much more people!<BR>
And The last thing you said...I don't even know them<BR>
I don't even live in the U.S.A<BR>
Just so that you know...<BR>
<BR>

<HR>
From: Galadrial<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

<BR>
<BR>
Anyway...<BR>
<BR>
         I was about to talk about vocabulary---and word choice. My kids start class figuring they'll work with forms---sonnets, haiku, the like. I make them THINK about words...the way they sound...the images they conjure...and the fact that one word can mean a dozen things to a dozen people. There was a truly hateful girl in my school named Melody...to this day, when I meet someone with that name, I go cool. My connotation with the name is negative---even though it's perfectly lovely name.<BR>
<BR>
        The point is, the more words you know, and more ways you know how to use them will lend texture and flavor to your writing.  "LOVE"...okay...five ways to say love without saying it...<BR>
<BR>
         the look in his eyes when he heard her laugh...<BR>
the rumble in the belly like warm hunger...blood gone to champagne at the touch of a kiss...warmth like the feel of a hot brownie on the tongue...or  "the look between them felt like thick velvet"<BR>
<BR>
          I guess I tend toward the tactile---but that is a way to convey the universal...<BR>
<BR>
          My two cents...and thanks Angel...I'm still amazed.......<BR>
<BR>
                                              Love <BR>
<BR>
                                               Gala
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From: me aka niki<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

 2 Megs~ "beside you alone"<BR>
The last sentence....Oh my god<BR>
It realy got to me...WOw.. =)
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From: terry<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

<BR>
I'd like to add another layer to the poetry discussion if I may. One area that in which I recieve almost universal criticism when i post outside the Blender is meter and line breaks. Michael mentioned that 'Dylan Days' lacked rhythm. He was right, and I acknowledged that and set out to figure out why. The answer was immediately obvious, or at least it was in the afternoon as opposed to middle of the night, lol. I had forced a partial rhyme scheme that seriously got in the way of the flow. And the reason I had forced the rhyme was to use words directly from Dylan's 'Rainy Day Women'. I thought that would add to the Dylan 'effect' enhancing the poem, while it truth it ruined it. Instead of being about how my day had evolved, it was suddenly about a gimmicky reference to Dylan himself.<BR>
<BR>
My question is this: Does all poetry have a 'natural' rhythm and flow? I have noticed that my better work does just that. It flows on its own, and the line breaks are apparent when I read the poem in my own head. And if I follow that 'natural' flow, the work ends up with a rhythm of its own. Only when I go back and try to force rhyming or perfectly sized stanzas does that flow get ruined. Even when I have done poetry that rhymes, the few times it has worked well, there was that natural flow in place that included the rhyming words.<BR>
<BR>
I agree guys, this is a great discussion...<BR>
<BR>
terry
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From: B.K.<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

Megs: Welcome back, and thanks for the wonderful work. My favorite was 'Her Lover Dies Inside.' I had to have some tissue with that one. Good to see you writing again and you are right, great therapy.<BR>
<BR>
bk
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From: Ali<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

Megs~ I love 'Her Lover Dies Inside'...that got to me...wow..I really love it.<BR>
        Love and smiles, Ali
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From: Ali<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

Silent Voice...I don't really know what to say to you...I wasn't doing anything wrong by commenting on Niki and Elaina's work...I do, however, comment on other people's work, not just Niki's or Elaina's...so, that's it...i'm not cliquish, never have been...I read everybody's submissions, but rarely have time to comment on all the ones I like...i am sorry if something upset you...but if you had a problem...you maybe could have stated it a little nicer...but i am sorry if i did anything to offend anyone.<BR>
Love and Light, Ali
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From: Galadrial<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

<BR>
<BR>
Slug honey?<BR>
<BR>
       Go here....and tell me how to list the author----<BR>
and thanks...http://www.geocities.com/galadrialsgarden/pr3.html<BR>
<BR>
I think we're still messing with the graphics...<BR>
<BR>
                                           Love Gala<BR>

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From: deevaa<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

Terry -- on the topic of natural rhythm, awhile back I used to speak to a gentleman on the phone a lot, and one night we got to discussing poetry, which lead to him jumping online and coming this site -- which lead to him reading to me a poem by the guppy (that he'd just posted), now I've always loved guppy's work, but this was the first time I'd heard it out loud. It was amazing. From then I've always read poetry out loud.<BR>
<BR>
That same night we read a lot of poetry out loud to each other, and I made pencil notes on some of my poetry as I read over the phone, notes on where the 'out loud' rhythm didn't work. This act in itself has improved my poetry, even if it did slip into a pool of over-romantic sap while I was in the USA. (grin)<BR>
<BR>
dee<BR>

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From: the guppy<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

on the topic of rhyme and rhythm...i often write to a beat or melody (watching gala cringe...ha) that is there before the words even come out of me...i've noticed in myself that when i was turned on to jazz, the meter that i used to write got a bit more complicated...or chaotic...ha...found myself several times attempting to replace the notes of a coltrane sax solo with words...needless to say, that just didn't work...me=not that talented...i often start with one rhyme scheme and end up with another...sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't...sometimes i do it on purpose for the sake of avoiding the "sing song" type feeling...a real danger about sticking rigidly to a rhyme scheme is that the words have to be carefully selected...otherwise the readers just end up with "sounds" going through their heads, and may not grasp the meaning...for example, a brief tragic love tale set to a limmerick rhyme scheme..."there once was a man from nantucket...who's tears filled a five-gallon bucket...blah blah"...doesn't evoke much emotion or thought...meaning is lost, which is the real tragedy in this case<BR>
<BR>
that's enough out of me...loving the conversation here lately, though i feel myself being longwinded...ha<BR>
<BR>
later,<BR>
gup
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From: the guppy<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

and onto the topic of metaphors...water has, and always will be a strong reference in writing...as are all of the basic natural elements...sarah just wrote of fog, which is a combination of water and air elements...and one which carries with it human feelings of uncertainty or muted fear...or perhaps a semi-chronic state...one that will change, but not at all sure when<BR>
<BR>
elemental metaphors are interesting because they lend themselves to very different interpretations depending on the person using them...especially cool ones are things such as fog, or lava, or mud, that combine properties of basic elements<BR>
<BR>
just curious about what you guys all think about elemental metaphors...kevin and sarah, since you guys both recently posted water related subs, i'm anxious to hear responses from you, if you have the time...the good thing about analyzing poems from living authors is that you can ask them questions...tried doing that with t.s. elliot once, and got a "the number you have tried to reach has been disconnected" message...kinda sucks<BR>
<BR>
gup
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From: sarah<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

gup<BR>
<BR>
i wrote about fog.....mostly because it was quite foggy here today, and it made me think "the fog" it did sound forboding, and a sense of something about to happen as if there was something climatic coming with the fog....<BR>
<BR>
and with fog you can't see, it hides many things...and i didn't know what it was hiding and i still don't...its undfolding as i write it...so.....i want that sense of mystery, and not necesarily something good either, but maybe not bad.  who knows with fog :)
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From: Angel<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

Gala, you are sooooooo right about the use of vocabulary. This is an area I know I could work on. Reading is the best way I know how to do this, so I am trying to read more and submit less...trying to refrain from submitting just anything I happen to scribble down. Using a dictionary and thesaurus each time I encounter a new word ,or new use of a word, is also invaluable (Toklas and Kevin send me to these resources often). And,though I am not to sure of the 'rumble in the belly' one (sounded like someone in need of immodium...aghhhh don't hit me!:), the other examples you gave for conveying love were excellent...I especially 'LOVED' (*wink*) the 'champagne' and 'brownie' ones. <BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Terry~anything that is forced will lack rhythm...ever see Steve Urkel dance? *smile*. Most everything you write has a nice flow...I especially liked the 'Memories' one. I agree with Dee about the benefits of reciting your poem out loud. This will unveil any awkwardness in lines and stanzas and will allow you to hear what the reader is taking in.<BR>
<BR>
Gary~I checked out your site. And I must say a place that allows for reciting of poetry is appealing (I have been told I recite well:) But, I failed to get anything open. Is this a common problem or could it be my comp?<BR>

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From: slug<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

gala - credit it to me: Emily. it's beautiful. thank you.
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From: Toklas<BR>
Date: 12 January 2001<P>

There is a wonderful online poetry dictionary that spells out all the varieties of rhyme, meter and form @ http://shoga.wwa.com/~rgs/glossary.html<BR>
<BR>
Dee,<BR>
on the piling up of image in that one poem- I think the problem is that you have not built anything specific or particular that gives the reader enough information to understand where the feelings come from. Any image that does not tell us anything specific- the why's and wherefore's- is an abstraction. Abstractions, like cliches,  are what we try to avoid in poetry. You could take one of these images- feeling like a blank slate for example, and build around that. One good thing to try to do is take one image and try to explore it fully.<BR>
<BR>
Developing one image and sticking with it is a way to write a poem that is cohesive. 
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