From: Gary<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Sarah,<BR>
      Dont worry,as my wife says poetry is not about reason but blood, guts and semen. If its there it will come, I think we all go through the block at some time or other. dont try to force it, just let it happen.
<HR>
From: kevin urenda<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

scqueen-<BR>
Thanks for the kind words.  <BR>
<BR>
I was in Redondo Beach, and the furthest north I travelled in my short stay there was Universal City.  Well, really, the north side of Griffith Park.  Was the only time I lost my bearings...  I hope that doesn't mean I was close to where you are.  That would be a most depressing thought indeed...<BR>
<BR>
Tok-<BR>
I don't mind honest and helpful criticism.  It is near impossible to hone the craft of writing absent the critical eyes of others.  I've even broken out the blue pencil on occasion myself.<BR>
<BR>
But...  each poem is a snapshot in time for me.  I have never been big on re-writing poems (except when I made a brief foray into structured formats such as Elizabethan and Italian sonnets, neither of which is really my style).  I generally move on, and try not to repeat something I've said before, even if I've said it poorly.
<HR>
From: kevin urenda<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

And Gala-<BR>
<BR>
I didn't find California Girls much different from the girls here.  Definitely not as appealing as Faeries from the East... ;-)
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From: toklas<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Hi Kevin,<BR>
nice to see you around again.  I don't think critical commentary would be valuable to you if you are not a person who is into rewrites.  <BR>
<BR>
Was this a vacation or business in California? 
<HR>
From: Ali<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Niki~ Hey, glad to have you back! Loved all the new stuff!!<BR>
<BR>
Toklas~ 'Ellipsis' was beautiful...I've never read anything like it...it was really great!<BR>
<BR>
Love and light, Ali
<HR>
From: Toklas<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Thank you Ali, glad you enjoyed "Ellipsis."  The inspiration came from all the jibes here about my comment &lt;grin&gt;.  <BR>
<BR>
When in doubt, turn life into poetry!
<HR>
From: Toklas<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Any editing ideas out there??<BR>
<BR>
I have spent six months trying to get better at editing my work with minimal success.   Posting and getting feedback has helped to some degree to pick out the rough spots. But as far as developing any real process that is working, I just am not getting it. <BR>
<BR>
For those of you who do edit, what do you think works for you?
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From: Toklas<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

dee, I found your waterfall woman painting in the subs and I just love it. Her hair is wonderful!  Do you ever intend on making prints of your work?  <BR>
<BR>
I am way too poor to buy original paintings, but a print of something like that would be wonderful. <BR>
<BR>
Guppy, I also came across 02 while I was cruising through the subs.  I love every word. It is so original and the poem stays with you long after you leave the page. That whole filter and sort thought is fabulous. 
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From: Ali<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

B.K.~ 'Empathy and Hogwash' was great...I loved it! lol...great message, great writing.<BR>
Love and smiles, Ali
<HR>
From: gardenguru, [email-masked]<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

EDITING .... for Toklas (and others?).<BR>
<BR>
I'm thinking there are two kinds of editing.  <BR>
<BR>
That of the funtionally compulsive editor who gets paid for working and reworking the words of others or sometimes his or her own makings.<BR>
<BR>
And that of the philosophical editor who may not be content with simply "acceptable".<BR>
<BR>
(I shant forget that there are plenty here who are happy with their quick post of blood, sweat, tears, guts, bile, and other important viscera and body fluids.  To edit or rewrite their heart and soul would "dilute the moment".  So, write on, powerful poet, to express yourself.  Have at your catharsis.)<BR>
<BR>
But Toklas, for you, let's target the philosophical editor who wants to ride their pen over their words to find the more and the better -- the lady or gentleman who wants to express themselves AND communicate with the reader.<BR>
<BR>
My hero, the great editor Theodore A. Rees Cheney, preferred the word "revision" for the process.  Simply because of the etymology he saw: re-vision, or "seeing it again" (and again and again).  Each time you look at your own work, you will find something to make it more accurate, more concise, more appropriate, more dramatic, more heart-stopping, more memorable, or somehow mush mo betta than your original words to convey to the world the vision your mind had seen.<BR>
<BR>
That's the basic.<BR>
<BR>
Here's some quick nitty-gritty tips that come to mind (forgive me for being condescending to those who have taken high school writing):<BR>
<BR>
After your first draft, let the moment pass.  Put the piece aside to cool off.  Give it a day or two or three or more.<BR>
<BR>
When you rewrite, don't let other moments of inspiration pass you by.  You'd be surprised at what hits you when you think you're going in one direction.<BR>
<BR>
If you come to an impasse, don't let "writer's block" wad up your undies.  Put a check, star, asterisk, circle, or blob next to the passage that grabs at your creative throat.  Maybe make a one or two word note (and not just "Damn word!").  Go back later, preferably when your mind is fresh and aggressive.<BR>
<BR>
Focus on your subject and eliminate digressions.  Focus on your style and keep it uniform.<BR>
<BR>
Get some tools: a good dictionary, a book of quotes, a thesaurus.  Be frugal and appropriate, however -- a little book collection is a dangerous thing.  Dictionaries have words you don't ordinarily use in real life.  Quotes become cliches.  Thesaurus-backed writings can look like it.<BR>
<BR>
Those quickies come to mind.  Some may work for you.<BR>
<BR>
Joe (gardenguru)
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From: deevaa<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Toks, thanks!<BR>
<BR>
I've been working on a series in that style. I've not made prints of Waterfall Woman, because its bigger than the 'easily' printable size. (Anything smaller than A3 is easy to get prints off, and resonably cheep, bigger than A3 and you pay a bundle). <BR>
<BR>
I've got someone coming to look at it on Wednesday, she's Australian and in NZ on buisness, with any luck I can take some money off her before she leaves. *wicked grin*<BR>
<BR>

<HR>
From: Toklas<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Joe, <BR>
<BR>
thanks for responding to the question. All of what you have suggested, I have done so far.<BR>
<BR>
The words that helped the most was the idea of re-vision.<BR>
That poetry is a vision. That really gives me an idea of a some better approaches. It is so easy to get hung up and fall in love with some of our own words and really hard to get a total divorce from them and let creativity kick in again.  I just had a note from squeen where she said that she revised her poem and was concerned about the loss of sound.  I have that same problem all the time. And it is SO frustrating.  <BR>
<BR>
The thing is when you first write something- you do it because you have a kind of flow going.  When you edit (certainly at my limited editing skill level) it is easy to lose the flow.  <BR>
<BR>
When you said re-VISION, it suggested to me that editing in some way has to tap into creative flow again. With that in mind, I have a poem which I totally killed with editing. Now I realize that what it needed was to start over with the idea itself and write a new poem from the ideas I already had. Very hard to dump one's own words!  But I am already happier with this piece by starting completely over than I was with either the original, or the many edited versions. <BR>
<BR>
Of course dumping the whole poem and starting over won't be necessary all the time.   But in this case it solved one problem.  <BR>
<BR>
Thank you!
<HR>
From: kevin urenda<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Tok-<BR>
That isn't exactly what I meant.  Criticism when given without a condescending tone is always valuable to anyone who loves language and the use thereof.  Anyone who has a talent for placing words together in a manner that evokes a response in others could and should be open to any input that helps tighten what they write.  What I would personally find of great value to me *as a poet* is to know what doesn't work for the reader with a critical eye, or better yet, what almost works but falls short.  While I may not touch up a singular snapshot, it is helpful to have a mind to know what will help me sharpen my focus for the next one.  <BR>
<BR>
k
<HR>
From: Toklas<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Kevin, sorry, I read the "But..." part you wrote afterwards to mean that. Since that was last thing on your post - I took that as last word. <BR>
Thank you for clarifying. <BR>
<BR>

<HR>
From: the guppy<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Toklas---Glad you liked o2.  I sometimes have the best luck with the fewest lines.  I'm prone to tangential wanderings, and usually I let them go where they will, but sometimes I'm thinking to myself "man, you talk to much".  o2 was originally going to be a longer piece, but I distilled it down to what I thought really needed to be said, and left it at that.<BR>
<BR>
I like to play with double meanings and parallel thoughts/metaphors.  It gets tough at times to make the line breaks and punctuation work to support parallel thoughts.  I was writing "seizure by section" and debating with myself about where to place the line breaks.  The title of it is supposed to be a twist of ceasarian section, and there is supposed to be a sort of "birth of thought" theme being toyed with.  Ruler 'cross the knuckles was actually a tough line to figure out what to do with.  I wanted it to be ruler to point back to ceasar, and the "a" left out of "across" to make it "cross the knuckles", like "cross the fingers".  The cramps go with the birth idea, and the writing idea, and the crossed fingers idea.  All in all I would describe that one as an attempt to think my way out of some severe writer's block.  I felt my thoughts confined by words and style, but I had to work with what was available.  I'm not very happy with the piece, but I thought I'd offer some thoughts about why I wrote it the way I did. <BR>
<BR>
gup
<HR>
From: kevin urenda<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

whoops!  Looks I was slow!<BR>
<BR>
Tok-<BR>
you took another thought I had but did not state in exactly the same way.  As writers we all tend to "go with what we know," right?  So if I can learn something about how I might alter my vision for the next time I look at something I am compelled to write about, I may actually write something that is halfway decent.  In that vein, again, of course I welcome thoughtful criticism... 
<HR>
From: Me aka Niki<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

2 Ali~"I'll Be"<BR>
WOW<BR>
I was having a bad time<BR>
and when I read it I just got tears in my eyes<BR>
I feel like that, always<BR>
But as hard as I try I can't put it in words<BR>
You always do that so perfectly<BR>
Good work..loved that one...<BR>

<HR>
From: Ali<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Niki~ Wow, thanks sooooooooo much. It means a lot to me, that you can connect...thanks!<BR>
<BR>
Love and smiles,<BR>
Ali
<HR>
From: scqueen<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Kev ~ You're off the hook, you were about 3 1/2 hours south of me. I am between Santa Barbara and San Luis Obispo. To be more general, north of LA, south of San Fran. It's 75 and absolutely gorgeous here today...not to tempt you, but aren't you getting snow? Glad I'm originally from the east coast or you would have heard it about the California girl remark :-)
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From: Galadrial<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Oh Terry...<BR>
<BR>
               Loved the peppermint memory....thanks my friend...                        <BR>
<BR>
                                        Gala
<HR>
From: terry<BR>
Date: 3 February 2001<P>

Thank you Gala, it may not belong in The Love Blender, but then love covers a broad spectrum.<BR>
<BR>
t.
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