From: Galadrial<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

<BR>
Welcome Back Gary...we saved you a spot by the fire....
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From: B.K.<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Gary; The only people that are going around here are the cowardly creeps that prey on us. The rest of us are going to stay right here, stand up to the bullies, and wait for you to get well enough to join us again. Take Care!<BR>
<BR>
bk
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From: Patty Drummond ([email-masked])<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Loved the poem "The maze" by Incognito.  I wish I could write short succinct poems instead of rambling on with no purpose.  But alas, Que Cera Cera
<HR>
From: Patty Drummond ([email-masked])<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

I have always loved this website.  I don't remember to check it that frequently, but every now and then I'll check in.  It's a great place for even us occasional writers to make our presence known to the world.  <BR>
<BR>
Thanks for providing this for us Kirk.  It's appreciated.<BR>

<HR>
From: Harem  aka  Incognito, daydreamer, torntopieces, etc.<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

To Patty Drummond ~<BR>
Thanks for the comment about "MAZE".. written by Incognito (also aka Harem).... OK... so I am confessing my sins....<BR>
I have written under several other names here in the past... especially when I wanted to write 'naughty' stuff...<BR>
since a few of my friends know the Harem name and did not want them to know the depraved states that I am capable of... giggle.... Oh how I long to be totally anonymous again.... I promise I will write under Harem from now on... <BR>
Or at least I will try to.... I have even written under a few names, I can't remember at the moment.... oh well...<BR>
Thanks anyway for the comment.... I love the short stuff too, .... I think it's neat when you can say a lot of junk in just a few words.... GREAT...  <BR>
<BR>
~ Harem, Incognito, Daydreamer, TornToPieces, ETC...... ~<BR>
<BR>
P.S.  I never use anything but Harem for my comments....<BR>
of that I am truly sure.....<BR>
<BR>
Grandma used to say, "If you don't have anything nice to say.... then don't say it."  <BR>
<BR>
..
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From: Harem<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

To DarkAngel~ (the Gary Guy) ~<BR>
So you are back.... Hmmmm.... gives another deep dimension here on the blender... You keep this place colorful, to say the least....<BR>
Glad you're back... and hope your feeling better.<BR>
<BR>
 ~ Harem ~<BR>
<BR>
.
<HR>
From: [email-masked]<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

To whomever can stop postulating for five minutes to read this:<BR>
<BR>
I have been wandering in and out of this "board" for approximately a year or so.  I used this forum as a "springboard" of creativity.  Reading your works "shook the leaves off" of the tree of my collective consiousness.  From that, I have composed much work.  Now, I have to admit that I, and many others from commentary I have read, felt "left out" of conversation and "ignored" when requesting insight into one's poetry.  This was due to the fact that a select few had developed a relationship that basically emerged as what appeared to be a "social clique" and a "mutual adoration" society.  Now, please don't take offense to these observations -- they are not meant to be a criticism -- they are simply that, an observation, of a very normal psychosocial "group association" that had taken place. <BR>
<BR>
Herein I believe lies the problem.  This board was erected with the intention (if i may be so bold to suppose) as a means of posting ones work for all the world to see.  And i have news for you, there are those who will appreciate it and those who will not.  If you continually take "criticisms" so personally -- you move the effectiveness of this site away from the intent of its orginator.  The "group" that is participating in this exodus basically set themselves up to be "attacked".  (Refer to Mac's "The Prince")  They moved from presenting their work to be read and in some cases be constructively and not so constructively criticized -- to using this site as a "social meetingplace" to air your personal life and opinions and maybe once and a while -- throwing in some poetry.  Poetry is meant to be criticized for the sake of the author making it better, refining it, honing your craft.  People who are not "poets" take criticism of their work as "other's beating their new born children." Additionally, prose should not be treated here as poetry's bastard sister.  There is a whole movement in modern poetry entitled "poetic prose." (take heart Harem:  "Poetry has two outstanding characteristics.  One is that it is undefinable -- the other is that is eventually unmistakable." -- E. A. Robinson. <BR>
<BR>
    Kirk, take heart, great instaturations have taken place in realms far greater than this.  People will come and go...but do not lose faith that you will encounter many new and wonderful artists as well as welcome back those "prodigal sons" who will, I assure you, will return.  I am still not exactly sure what took place here, some of you will want to espouse your grievances because you feel that you need to "let me know" what happened because you may feel i am trivializing your concerns.  It may not be in my place, but let me remind you, this is for poetry...and we are poets, not personal interest commentators or social judges.  "Poetry is what poets write" -- R. Frost  It is this simplicity that we must all return to.  Simply ignore the antagonists -- if you want to fight them, this is not the place.  If you want to express your anger and frustration, do it through your work -- it will bring you peace.  "You must believe a poem is a holy thing -- (a good poem that is)" -- Theodore Roethke.  Let poetry be our redemption, our way of forgiveness, our religion.  And as any worthy religion, we will be persecuted through many means -- but that will make us all the more steadfast in our belief.<BR>
<BR>
Sincerely,<BR>
<BR>
Natalia 
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From: Harem<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Oh... just remembered another three.<BR>
<BR>
I also wrote under the pen name of "Charade"...and<BR>
"HerSheNess"  and also  "HerShyNess".<BR>
<BR>
Shame on me... SPANK SPANK ! ! ! <BR>
<BR>
   ~ Harem ~
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From: Kirk, Blender-Keeper<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Well, the coding goes for blender 2, but a little slowly. Last night I got it so you can select a username, password, enter an e-mail, and it will mail a link to that address, and got the script that the link points to started (it recognizes valid e-mailed keys vs invalid.) Actually, once that part is done (not too long) it's a pretty short step to making it part of the regular blender board.<BR>
<BR>
Natalia -- interesting comments.  The Blender Board probably isn't the best community for really fostering constructive criticism.  It's probably a bit too big and disorganized.  When I took a poetry class in college (and learned that I'm not that great of a poet) it was a small group.  The prof. acted as a facilitator for guiding the discussion.  People tended to be a little uncritical I thought (my mom talks about her college class as leaving her in tears, people just looking to rip into each other works, which goes too far in the other direction.) You tended to work for longer on a single poem than I guess people here do (I think that springs from infuleces from slam poetry, the nature of the web, and somewhat the nature of 'love poetry' in general.)<BR>
<BR>
Hmm.  Here's an idea, and once blender 2 is up maybe I can add this in: maybe every day (week? two or three days?) We can somehow select a single poem (or maybe two or three?) to discuss.  We could try to get in the habit of getting into the specifics of the poem, its warp and woof, what works, what doesn't, not just a surface analysis.<BR>
<BR>
Obviously we could more or less do this with today's Blender Board, but I think for best results I would have to write some supporting scripts.  <BR>
<BR>
Here are some questions to discuss, if people like this idea:<BR>
1. How would we select the poem to discuss?  Maybe some kind of 'nomination' system?  People will probably want to nominate their own, which is fine, and good actually.  Maybe I could make a "discussion request" form.  I guess I could be the arbiter of what gets 'picked', though I'd rather not.  Or we could try some 'vote' system, though that's open to fraud, even with people having to provide email accounts to activate their accounts here. Or we could try a 'council of moderators' approach I bounce arround every so often...<BR>
2. How should the mechanism for this look? Should it just be part of the regular blender board?  Should I make a note with a link at the top of the board, indicating this is the poem for discussion? Or should we have two boards, one for the usual socialization and brief comments, one of the in-depth commentary.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, this idea just came to me as I was typing this, so it's not too well fleshed out.  But I think I like it.  I remember hearing about some of the Usenet poetry forums, one of the criticisms was that everyone wanted to post their poems but far fewer were willing to put in the time to come up with thoughtful comments on other's works. I think we could add some infrastructure to the site to address this, and try to raise the level of criticism and comment and art without sacrificing the open forum nature of the site.<BR>
<BR>

<HR>
From: Madi<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

thank you, delilah<BR>

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From: Toklas<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Some kind of opportunity for something more critical would be great Kirk.  I think any excercise in looking closely at a work improves our own. Of course the openness of the site is a good starting off  point for the newer poets not really ready for criticism.  But it would be nice to see something with a critical bent co-exist happily on this site. <BR>
<BR>
To avoid critiscism that "attacks,"  a few guidelines on criticism might be helpful.  Also, for the poems being critted, the poet has to understand that the comments are directed at the language of the poem -- not the person. No one should volunteer to have their work critted unless they are really comfortable with that. <BR>
<BR>
Anyway, any opportunity for some critting here gets my vote. <BR>
<BR>
Gala- my isp went down for a week. I have new email addy. <BR>
<BR>
[email-masked]. <BR>
<BR>
Will be in touch. <BR>
<BR>

<HR>
From: [email-masked]<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

A bump to the Dark Angel,<BR>
 You may think that some of us are looking for attention but in actuallity we are looking for answers.<BR>
 One is how you can tell someone you love them and want to spend the rest of your life with them one day and run away the next without even a note telling them why you did it. <BR>
 Two how you can be so selfish as to think that other people don't have any feelings so you continue to stomp on them, you didn't need to come back into my life to screw it up anymore you did a good job of that the first 2 times around. <BR>
 Three how you can act like you are the greatest person alive in and out of bed and in reality it is only in your head, all you are doing is hurting the people who care about you. Well I am doing my best to stop.<BR>
You have messed up my life for the last time,,,oh yea Sami wants to know where you are,,,,I told her the truth "you ran away from home again"<BR>
 Four how can you treat people the way you do and still have friends, but all these people know about you is what you write, they don't know you personally, like I do. They are all lucky. You not only write good but you talk a good game, hopefully no one else will fall for your lines like I did.<BR>
 You may think you have changed but I know you haven't.<BR>
Like I said I don't want anything bad to happen to you but I would really like to know how you think sometimes, then maybe I would understand why you treated me the way you did. You all can feel sorry for him if you want but we all know that you make your own destiny and,,,What goes around comes around.<BR>
<BR>
We all know who I am even if I don't put it in print.
<HR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

If the critiquing is done in such a way as to kindly offer suggestions on improving the piece and consideration is made to the writer's overall writing skills so as not to overwhelm him/her with technicalities that may discourage  his/her participation, I am for it. But if it takes on the flavor of a poetry bash, I am not. As I have said many times before, there are many people here with varying degrees of education and talent and I enjoy the diversity here...to me that is what is attractive about the Blender. There are many STRINGENT STUFFY poetry sites that wouldn't look twice at most of us...do we really care? I don't. And it is not that I resist improving my skills or that I have a fragile ego as some would say. It is because I have no complaints with myself or my writing as it is :) I am happy:) And if a little of all of you rub off on me in a gradual manner as I peruse your lovely and not so lovely works of art, so be it...will make me happier which is cool. My whole point here...writing is my hobby, not my life, don't make it drudgery.
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From: Angel<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Ummmmm the above comment is mine:) Did I even have to tell ya?
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From: Angel<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Madison~"Flight Options", really conveys the power of the heart over mind. I liked your use of short choppy sentences...it gave a frantic feel to the whole piece.
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From: Ali<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Toklas~ I loved 'Bedtime Stories'...Very nice!<BR>
<BR>
Harem~ Beautiful submission, dearie! =)<BR>
<BR>
Love and laughter, Ali
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From: Angel<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Rae Baby~"No One's Angel", There's alot of feeling and innocence in this poem. I especially liked this line...'I do not wish for angels <BR>
I don't pray for "love so true"<BR>
A cute boy with a sweet spirit that laughs a lot will do.'<BR>
<BR>
*Nothing at all wrong with a sweet, honest, rhyming poem:)*
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From: Angel<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

BK~"If You Were King Kong and I Were Fay Wray"...and I love those that make me laugh...:)<BR>

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From: Galadrial<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

<BR>
<BR>
Princess---<BR>
<BR>
          This forum has been used for all sorts of personal stuff...so I won't kick about you posting what you please...<BR>
<BR>
          But a BUMP in the blender is a poem inspired by another poem. Just trying to keep our terms straight.<BR>
<BR>
                                              Gala
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From: Galadrial<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

<BR>
<BR>
As far as the new forum is concerned, my two cents---I agree that we need a more critical forum---but I still prefer the concept of volunteers...if you are open to critique, fine.<BR>
<BR>
But the Blender is the home of emotionally inspired poetry---not always objective, and at times heartfelt and hurting.<BR>
If I were new to writing, and bled a poem out and some thoughtless ass decided to come along and nail me for cliches---well, that would be pretty damned traumatic. May I suggest, at time of posting, an author can give a qualification of "personal" poem, vs. "public" poem? The personal will let us all know that you are still doing the ache and hurt---and maybe now isn't the time to approach you about adjectives. Once you call something public, all bets are off. Be ready for a critique.<BR>
<BR>
Just my thoughts on the subject.
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From: B.K.<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Unless you are my mentor, I probably would get out the clan and come after you if you touch a line in my poems..lol Just not really interested in getting critiqued, nor giving critique. I do enjoy telling poets what I like about their work though.<BR>
<BR>
Angel; Thanks, King K.'s just a big furry sensitive sweetheart that needs a lot of training...lol lol  Have been missing your work here Angel. Write for us Please!<BR>
<BR>
bk<BR>
<BR>

<HR>
From: Kirk<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Thinking about it, people should nominate their own poems.  And when they do so, there would be a warning: while we try to build a supportive community, poetic criticism can and should include just that: criticism.  Don't do this if you're just fishing for complements, only if you're at least a bit serious about discussing what factors can help expression become art-- or even just better expression.
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From: kevin urenda<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

I first came around here in 1998, and ever since, looking for the poetry, to feed off it, write it, give props...  It's not personal, but the subject matter is.  If we don't learn inside ourselves make the distinction between our words and that which they come from, we have trouble in river city...<BR>
<BR>
I really like Kirk's ideas of a full discussion on selected works.  That will help us help each other, I think.
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From: [email-masked]<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Kirk:<BR>
<BR>
I think your idea of an area where people can submit their work for feedback is excellent.  Galway Kinnell and Stanley Kunitz have sent stuff back and for (as well as many other poets) for eons.  It was important as someone pointed out...that the language needs to be addressed...not the subject matter of the poem.  So often we as writers become so emotionally attached to our work that we can't see obvious "problems" in the understanding of our language.  It seems to me that if you post your poetry on here...you expect it to be read!!!  This seems like a moot point.  As a poet, i feel it would be a shame if something i labored over writing was read by someone and they "didn't get it" or they "misunderstood" the effect i had wanted them to experience through the poem.  I went to a reading once and asked a poet who exactly was the "speaker" in his poem.  He looked dead at me and said "if you didn't figure it out, then the poem must have failed".  You want your readers to get as much out of your poems as you have put into them (or try to at least) and i think exposing your work to be -- lets say "workshopped" instead of critiqued from now on -- is a way to learn from your readers who are also poets and perhaps be inspired along the way.  All writing is about revision -- and every writer needs to step back and hand their work to an editor for feedback -- if we don't do this how will we ever advance the craft.<BR>
<BR>
Additionally, the phrase "slam Poetry" has come up often.  Do not discredit the value of off the cuff, quickly written work.  There has been a lot of work here that i have seen, that with revision and care, could make a journal of poetry any day.  And please remember, the "stuffy" poets of today were the "free verse" radicals of the early part of the century -- their work disposed of by critics engrained in the poetry of the victorian era.  You need to give yourself credit for the possibility that we may just be blazing some trails here for the future of poetry as a whole (not just "love poetry" -- for that matter all poetry can seemingly be classified into three categories "love (or lack of love -- hate, sex, etc.) beauty (or lack of beauty -- global warming, new jersey, chinese food after a long night of drinking..lol), and truth (or distrust, lies, adultry, you name it)...so we are working on one good category here. Lets take it to the next level for those who are willing to take a chance to develop themselves as writers.  And for those who just want to write to relieve pressure and pain or joy...go get 'em...let me know if it works out because i am paying this damn therapist a hell of a lot of money!!<BR>
<BR>
Peace Love and Pancakes<BR>
<BR>
Natalia
<HR>
From: Chris<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Kevin,<BR>
<BR>
River City, huh... You mean Austin? LOL...
<HR>
From: Angel<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

I love Gala's idea about selective submisions, 'public', 'private'. There are times I would like an opinion on a piece and some critquing, but then there are times that I may respond as BK stated she might if someone dare touch a word of it! I guess that is what I resist most to...OPEN SEASON ON MY HEART! I would love to hone my skills a little bit at a time on non-personal pieces.
<HR>
From: Kirk, Blender-Keeper<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

nataliaanna: yeah, 'workshop' is a better word.  <BR>
<BR>
Angel: Not sure if I'm on the same page with marking each poem as "public" or "private"... maybe it's just terminology, but anything posted here is "public" in at least one important sense. So the question is, do we have each poem lable-able as "workshoppable" when it's submitted, or do we have a seperate mechanism where an author can submit a poem for possible workshopping (which turns it into more of a self-selecting process). I think I like the latter, since it will be less of a difficult decision to make. <BR>
<BR>
So blender 2 is coming along, slowly but more or less surely.  At this point, you can create an account, and I created a new version of the blend board add form that requires the username/password from the account, and checks that before submissions.  Once I do a few "TODOs" with those scripts, and add a view account/edit account info (which will include an optional 'public e-mail' and maybe some optional bio information) I'll probably be ready to use the new login system for the Blender Board. 
<HR>
From: Galadrial<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Hey Kirk?<BR>
<BR>
         That's the terminology I use in my workshops...and yes, posting it should make it public...but I think new poets especially may put out work that is too "close" to them---more in a spirit of chatharsis than creativity...also---some of the sites I post at have limits...have you given that any thought? Three per poet, per forum is becoming traditional in a lot of venues...<BR>
<BR>
         And hey Kahuna---are you ever planning on running that ramble I sent you? Spring is great for erotica....<BR>
<BR>
         How's the job?
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From: Galadrial<BR>
Date: 25 April 2001<P>

Hey Shark...<BR>
<BR>
             Just a hint...desert is one "s". Someone once told me a tip for that one. Dessert has two "s" because everyone wants more than one...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
                                        Gala
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