From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1131">indefensible sushi</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

Word, Markie boy, WORD. Life and art and metaphysics and gay marriage are all a part of the same grungy ball of cosmic wax. Those who would compartmentalize and segregate it usually end up producing art deserving of anything BUT the term art. Voltaire had it right when he noted that all art is political - ESPECIALLY that which professes not to be. Internet message boards - perhaps the finest fruit of the dubious tree that is the Web - should exemplify joyous anarchy. We need not no rule but no rulers. Let the patients seize the asylum.<BR>
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Anyway, some interesting thoughts. I too have gone from Christian fundamentalism to Buddhism to nothing and back again. In the course of my spiritual tourism I have come to one conclusion: predilection for religion, for spirituality, is like a non-communicable virus (if such a thing is possible). You either have it or you don't. And if you DO have it, you're more or less stuck with it. But what all faith has in common, I think (or should, ideally speaking), is a bedrock respect for human relationships and right or correct actions toward the whole of humanity - that is to say, actions in harmony with natural law (if one insisted on remaining wholly secular about it). Viewed from this paradigm, homosexuality can well be objected to - as can drugs and drink and too much McDonald's. You're either (a) dishonoring the body or (b) dishonoring the supereme being that CREATED the body. Pick your poison. <BR>
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I disagree sharpy with you on the porn issue, however, because the freedom to choose what one consumes - be it Velveta cheese or Debbie Does Dallas Yet Again - is an integral component of American democratic (LOWER-case d) and libertarian ideals. So, yeah, this is a relevant matter. Except (possibly) for inside gossip or the intricacies of auto repair, what could be more on-topic? And what exactly IS the topic anyway? As England's liberal Victorian conscience said through Dickens through a character named Marley, "Mankind was my business."<BR>
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Let's open for business, ya'll.
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1269">Injun Joe</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

Religion  and spirituality is NOT a matter of intellectual choice.  IT chooses US.  God calls us, God chose us before we chose God.  Faith has nothing to do with facts or "agreement."  Faith simply IS...<BR>
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Porn is an abomination... one cannot be a feminist or humanist and accept pornography as normal.  It may well be the highest form of aberrant behavior... up there with NAMBLA, prostitution, and child-molesting priests.  Regardless of your justification, porn hurts women and destroys relationships.  It distorts human sexuality and cheapens and degrades our humanity.  There is nothing artistic about it (I imagine you are someone who justifies it as acceptable "erotica").  You show a high level of ignorance - and given that I know you personally (which most Blenderites can't/don't know), I am confident that on this topic that you should seek some counseling and therapy on that issue.<BR>
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Porn is worse than heroin... people who use or support pornography reveal a damaged psyche and a bankrupt spiritual life where nothing is special or sacred.<BR>
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Rape and domestic violence are direct results of the effects of porn.  Your rationalization and attempt at "normalization" of porn makes you an enabler and accessory before the fact for the harm that porn causes...  you should be ashamed.  The day you reject porn is the first day that you actually have the possiblity of a healthy, satisfying relationship.<BR>
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By the way, today is World AIDS Awareness Day.  AIDS didn't just happen to choose gays - it is reflective of an unhealthy lifestyle and unhealthy behavior.  42 million people are HIV+ and is on the rise at an unprecedented rate.
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=222">poyen_fpy</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

injun joe,<BR>
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i believe you have good intentions for posting homosexuality-related topics here. i think it is very "liberal" (in your own words) to acknowledge it, because, let's face it, it's a subject not most people feel comfortable discussing, what with prejudices here and there. <BR>
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Although, may i suggest using links on the message board to serve the same purpose?<BR>
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This issue on sexuality is very delicate. I think where it comes to love, it ceases to become an issue of right and wrong. There are really no facts, only opinions. <BR>
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In the end, we are not responsible for anyone else's business but our own. Who other people choose to go to bed with is NONE of our business.<BR>
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There is much talk about redemption for the soul, but i hardly think prejudice will help us much in achieving that. <BR>
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I think it would be heaven if we all just learn to respect each one's right to live and love.<BR>
 
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1269">Injun Joe</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

Thanks, poyen fpy... ends up being one of the better subjects for discussion on the Blender...<BR>
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I will say this - I agree with many of your points, and I would prefer to keep it a matter of personal conscience, however...<BR>
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When the socio-political lobbies (like the gay lobby) insist on making it their job to continually throw this in our faces (i.e. lawsuits to force the courts to legislate morality and normalize their lifestyle choices against the mainstream opinion) then I simply feel it is my duty as a person of faith and conscience to voice my own opinion.  Most people shudder at the thought of actually taking a stand and voicing their opinions because we have been conditioned by that same gay lobby and the media that anything but blind unquestioning acceptance is somehow considered to be in bad taste.  Heck, most of my gay friends share my opinions, particularly in light of how they are portrayed by their "leaders" (GLAAD, etc) and in the media (stereotypical portrayals in things like "Will & Grace" and "queer Eye for the Straight Guy" etc).  To those same friends, those kinds of shows and portrayals are embarrassing and considered "uncool."  It is the hardcore club gays (incl. cross-dressers, transsexuals, flamers and militant gays/lesbians) that ruin it for anyone else.  Go walk through a bath house or businesses that commercialize/trivialize sex and get firsthand proof for yourself at just how insane our culture and society has become.  They FORCE people of conscience to speak out and be heard, and I predict a negative backlash like nobodies business because of this ongoing attack by the gay lobby.  I frankly don't intend much more comment (particularly here) except to take a public stand by responding in-kind to the media and to my elected gubbamint officials.  I encourage those of similar views to do the same, rather than biting their tongues out of PC politeness.  I have yet to hear any defense of this lifestyle that is anything but laughable, dysfunctional and tragic.  Much like the absurd defense of pornography...
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1269">Injun Joe</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

btw...I always defend each person's right to live and love...just don't try to force it down my throat, throw it in my face, or attempt to legitimize/normalize it in the courts, in schools or in my church.
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=268">Misti</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

We've always had pornography. Now we just have more of it because of the internet and the proliferation of adult play shops. Pornography (softcore...hardcore makes my stomach turn) has enhanced my life since I looked through my first Playgirl when I was in the third grade. I've seen enough penises of every imaginable variety so now I enjoy Playboy. I've never loved a woman but I indulge in fantasies. The average woman doesn't do it for me but I still hold Angelina Jolie on a very high pedestal and I've found hours of amusement at <a href="http://www.sublimedirectory.com.">http://www.sublimedirectory.com.</a> I've even hung out in various topless bars with my husband and tipped the dancers right along with him. This has not created any barriers or made me want to harm or kill people. It's the marijuana myth...smoke weed and it will lead to heroin. Bullshit. Look at softcore porn and before you know it you'll be craving movies of men having sex with llamas and you'll go bankrupt paying for call girls and you'll go to prison for raping cheerleaders. What the fuck ever. You know, I've often wondered...what do the religious right think about when they're having sex? Do they thank God for their orgasms? Do they berate themselves for getting an erection or getting wet when they see someone that churns their juices? Do they feel guilty for lusting after Ariel or Jasmine since they only watch Disney movies? And does it bother them at all that the person they are having sex with will be their brother/sister in Heaven? I was born and raised Baptist and it did nothing for my evolution as a fully realized sexual being. I finally had to say bye bye to the church so that I could lead a normal, semi-sane life. <BR>
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And if you think AIDS is God's way of punishing homosexuals, I hope you go to prison for embezzlement you Yuppie Nazi and get it so bad you can't shit right for the rest of your life. "Bad Santa" is a hilarious movie. I give it two boners.
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1296">julie gianni</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

Shame on you, Mark! (Although I must give you kudos for starting - finally! - a decent discussion here.) Alan would be mortified at your remarks, however. Good God...there is nothing worse than a born-again yuppie. Answer me this, though: did it ever occur to you that porn - and homosexuality - may well be everything you say it is and yet STILL be none of your (or my) business? Knowing your backstory as I do, it absolutely amazes me that you would take a position more akin to Jerry Falwell circa 1980 than Bill Burroughs circa 1950. You're the one who wants to legislate morality here. You obviously don't believe human beings should have the freedom to choose on these matters - to buy/not buy porn or to assume same-sex partners. And why is that? Because they might choose wrong! Mark, a little refresher: this is called fascism. Authoritarianism. Hitler killed homosexuals, too, I might remind you. Gays dysfunctional? Uh, look homeward angel... How would you explain the scores of equally dysfunctional straights in, for example, the rural South? Raised on snake-handling preachers, they're down with the same god you so eagerly name-drop at every opportunity. Jesus - if he is anything - is love, and Christians are supposed to emulate Christ. Sadly, most are better at hating than anything else. That's a whole hell of a lot easier.
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=74">Echolocation</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

Sorry, I wasn't clear on my last post.  Yes, I realize that the postings had to do with homosexuality which IMHO can of course be a valid expression of romantic love.  As far as I can see, however, the two submissions in question (the Anglican church ones) are concerned with the church's view of homosexuality rather than with "romantic love" (whether hetero or homo) which is of course the stated purpose of this site.  That's all.  And given that you clearly DON'T believe that homosexuality is a valid expression of love, I'm even more confused why you posted those two New Submissions.  If it was to stimulate discussion, you have succeeded!!<BR>
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And you're absolutely right that there have been any number of drastically OT things that have come up here.  Didn't mean to single you out by any means, nor to censor discussion of any topic.  Just suggesting that the Board is the proper place for discussions of religion, not the New Submissions page.  To everything there is not just a season but also a proper location, eh?  But I stand corrected since clearly the majority agree with you that they are relevant.  Certainly the discussion that you've prompted is!<BR>
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By the way, given that you're lobbying for "a total ban" on pornography, it seems a little unfair to complain that someone else is trying to censor you ("Yeah, that's the way to deal with the topic - CENSOR IT!!").<BR>
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Echo<BR>
Definitely not shooting the messenger, just trying to reroute him :)
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=744">jimmyallgrownup</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

Good point, mate. Gay-bashers who post said comments are more than likely themselves a little light in their Birkenstocks, if you ask me. Censorship is wrong when it's against them, of course--but just groovy when correctly applied. Andrea Dworkin would be proud.
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=74">Echolocation</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

I feel compelled to point out that AIDS didn't "just happen to choose" gays.  The most at-risk group today is African American women.  Yes, certain sexual practices transmit it more effectively than others.  But the transmission vector of a disease has nothing to do with guilt or innocence of those who fall ill (god must really hate people who live in swamps 'cause he gave them malaria...).  Don't you think if some supreme being really wanted to wipe out homosexuality he would have come up with a disease to which straight people were immune?  The unhealthy lifestyle isn't being gay, it's not using condoms, not getting tested for STDs, and having multiple partners -- all of which are just as prevalent in the straight community as in the gay community.<BR>
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Red cars get more speeding tickets than other colors but that's just because red stands out more and cops notice it, not because people who drive red cars are speeders by nature.<BR>
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And I'm curious: just how do you propose to "defend each person's right to live and love" if you refuse any "attempt to legitimize/normalize it in the courts" ?  Who/what do you think protects rights in this country?<BR>
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Echo<BR>
applauding a really good discussion, go Blenderites!
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=328">Rhetoric</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

WOW! a gal takes one week-long trip to California...and all hell breaks loose on her treasured e-site. Was it my absence? Just Kidding!<BR>
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Kirk, I sent youo an email about the shirts, BTW.<BR>
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While I have been exercising restraint in the past with more recent board discussions, I would like to chime in right about now.<BR>
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I do think that certain topics, that may not appear to be directly related to romance/love, are appropriate to discuss (as long as Kirk allows). I do not, however, feel that long-winded preaching to the masses is appropriate in this venue. Injun Joe, I have been following the issue in your church from the sidelines. I think it is very interesting the great divide it has created amongst those that call themselves Episcopalians. I cannot comment on right or wrong - because, it is not for me to judge. And...this should be mentioned for my own soap-boxing: I do not feel that homosexuality is wrong. I do not believe that it is an abomination. It is sexuality. And, two consenting adults can touch each other in any way as far as I am concerned. I spent some time this weekend with a very close pal who happens to be a practicing Orthodox Jew - he interprets the message to say that only sex for the purpose of conception is considered holy. Is he wrong? That is what the Bible says.<BR>
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I guess my main problem with this arguement (and most of organized Christianity) is that we "choose" which rules to obey and which to overlook. We place more importance on certain passages than others, all at our convenience. I just don't think that anyone can tell me what is "bad" or 'sinful', when they too are choosing thier own "sins" and making excuses for them.<BR>
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Yet, I do enjoy listening to the opinions of others. It helps me understand the complexity of certain issues and strengthens my arguement at other times. Personally,I welcome this type of dialogue. It forces me to think outside my realm of comfort.<BR>
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Hope your holiday was great, fellow Blenderites. <BR>
<BR>
Rhetoric
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=205">Violet</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

Kirk~  Where do I send a check?  When you say "info" do you need my address or shirt size info?  Thanks. ~Vi
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1139">jwb71913</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

I was going to leave this alone but.....<BR>
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Who am I (or you) to say that homosexuals can't define 'Love'?  Is my definition the only one that's right?  The Bishops debate is just another in a long line of 'definitions' of acceptable behavior.  Many denominations are struggling mightily with this issue.<BR>
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I agree that most Christians 'choose' which sins to commit. I know many Catholic women who use birth control and Baptists who dance and buy liquor at drive thru liquor stores.<BR>
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I must take umbrage to the mention of 'Deep South' snake handlers however.  Many of the most thoughtful men and women I know hail from the South.  The idea that cities in the North nurture intelligence and 'proper' spiritual behavior is absurd.  The most dysfunctional straight people I know came from the North.<BR>
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The ability to feel and accept intimate love from another human being is what romance is all about.  Choose your partner, whatever feels right.  I have no right to disagree with your choice.<BR>
<BR>
Jim
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=706">splatipus</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

Vishal - RIPK - Was wondering when you'd do it. Well done babes. Excellent piece.<BR>
Happy Birthday for Friday and phone me you arsehole. Need to make Christmas and New Year Plans. Angela coming out and need to party on down.
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1176">aparajita</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

icyheidi:  ahem... in response to your request&gt;&gt;&gt;<BR>
i feel alot of pain and anger and darkness when i read your works.  having been through the hell of divorce twice i can understand.  i am hoping that you are seeking help in dealing with these emotions so that you can live again someday, i believe there will be a tomorrow again that you will want to live and there will be eventually days in a row that you don't think of what is gone and look forward to what is left.  take care and keep writing, this is a very cathartic site for that.  hope it gives you some sweet release.<BR>
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i loved the lightheartedness of <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2003.11.16.20.07.3189">Lucky Me</a>.  it is especially pleasing due to the surrounding submissions of yours.  <BR>
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take care.
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1385">Harmonica</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

IcyHeidi..I took "The Core" out of the archives just for you.  I guess we have all been there.  I know I have.  But the ever-hopeful romantic in me will never let the promise of tomorrow die.  Happy tomorrows to you and the LB family. The Love Dog (hoplessly and forever)
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1176">aparajita</a><BR>
Date: 1 December 2003<P>

harmonica: i really like your style!  i could feel and see clouds in <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2003.11.29.14.09.10672">Passing Clouds</a>, i loved <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2003.11.26.09.43.17870">Alone</a> and, i can appreciate the torment i felt in <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2003.12.01.16.42.32638">The Core</a>.  like you, i still fervently cling to the notion that romance will someday exist again and even more importantly that i will be able to recognize and trust when it does.  peace to you.<BR>
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icyheidi:  peace to you with a restful and dreamless nite.
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