From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=12">Tanqueray Cowboy</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

Kirk, Ke... um... kluless, wordley, (with a nod to Madi)<BR>
<BR>
I often do the your/you're thing myself.  Most times I catch myself but I'm sure that other times I don't.  I almost did it in a memo to the boss the other day.<BR>
<BR>
I know better, as do you....  it's an honest mistake.  "Mistake" might even be too strong of a word.  Call it a "simple oversight."<BR>
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I guess that I've just run into quite a few instances lately -- not necessarily  here -- that left me wondering if a writer DID understand the difference.<BR>
<BR>
It's a interesting point Kirk makes about being an "audio" thinker.  A very interesting notion, indeed.  Most of the time I hear (here?) -- the words "your" and "you're" pronounced in the same way.  Even from my own mouth.  It occurs to me, though, that "your" should sound like "yore" and "you're" more like "yewr."  I frequently write "yer" as a joking reference to common Southern dialect but maybe it's not that far from the truth.  (USA only... your milage may vary (very?) in other English speaking lands.)<BR>
<BR>
I think it could be argued that our pop-culture-flavor-of-the-week (or izat flava?) society has in some ways become casual to the point of sloppiness.  Have we become so casual in our speech -- our pronunciation -- that our writing has followed suit?  Or has less reading, with an attendant ignorance about spelling and grammar, caused a decreased awareness of how English should be spoken?  Is it not a degeneration at all, but merely a continuing evolution of this ever-fluid language?<BR>
<BR>
We live in a VERY interesting time, linguistically.  1)  Mass media have shattered the regional, ethnic and class boundaries that typically shape language.  2)  New media have precipitated the birth of an entirely new (perhaps) form of communication -- written speech at the speed of the spoken word.  3)  Dramatic demographic shifts further erode the distinction between "common" and "proper" english.<BR>
<BR>
Well, I'm wayyy out on a tangent now.  Getting back to your/you're, I understand very well how simple it is to inadvertently transpose those words.  It's still a pet peeve, though, because I fear the misuse is born (borne?) out of ignorance more often than it should be.<BR>
<BR>
As for Kirk's opinion that the rules for making a possessive are "stupid," well, I couldn't agree more.  There are some pretty stupid rules in our language.  It's notoriously difficult for non-native speakers/writers to figure out.  There are, though, plenty of good rules that should not be discounted.  Many of the rules for the written word, especially, are not merely a matter of blind tradition or tired convention but in real and demonstrable ways affect the readability and, therefore, the impact of our writing.<BR>
<BR>
~tanq
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=268">Misti</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

<a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2004.07.28.00.49.6615">real smiles</a>...muy bueno, Brian<BR>
I've enjoyed reading all your poems<BR>
this one especially
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=23">Kirk</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

Heh...my usual cover for when someone calls me on some kind of grammatical mistake is "I'm a descriptivist, not a prescriptivist" which is a delightfully (to me) academic way of saying "hey, I'm really lazy".<BR>
<BR>
(Side note: I also say I use the "British" rules for whether the puncuation goes inside or outside the quotation marks...but really it's my geek-nature of what makes more "common sense".)<BR>
<BR>
Of course, most of us draw the line somewhere.  My pet peeve is "u" for you and "r" for "are", especially in combination.  This is highly prevelant in electronic conversation...so much so that I think I know some consultants from India--who probably got most of the practice writing English online--who I think don't know that "you" is the correct spelling, because I see it in what's otherwise fairly formal business notes. <BR>
<BR>
Note to submitters; if you're interested in aiming for a Front Page Pick, "u" works against you.  (A bulk of the time it doesn't matter, because most often those works don't have the emotional or intellectual depth I'm hunting for. And it's probably not a coincidence that Tanq is such a reliablely solid poet and has such a respect for the formalities of language...heheh, maybe my own laxness is why I think I'm a better prose guy than poet...)
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=13">B.K.</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

I swore I was not going to do this, ha but here goes.<BR>
<BR>
1. For a person you loved deeply, would you be willing to move to a distant country for him or her knowing there would be little chance of seeing your friends or family again?<BR>
 <BR>
That would be hard, that person would have to be truly deeply loved, then YES I would.<BR>
 <BR>
2. Do you believe in ghosts or spirits? Would you, be willing to spend a night alone in a remote house that is supposedly haunted?<BR>
 <BR>
No, I don't believe in ghosts.  However, yes I would love to talk to any friendly spirit as long as it was not a cannibal, that wanted to eat me. ha<BR>
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3. If you were to die this evening with no opportunity to communicate with anyone, what would you most regret not having told someone? Why haven't you told them yet?<BR>
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Some things are better left unsaid or you could write them and leave them with instruction at your death to be delivered to……<BR>
<BR>
4. If you could spend one year of your life in perfect happiness, but after doing so, not remember anything of the experience, would you do so? If no, why not?<BR>
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Perfect happiness, I somehow think that’s the perfect carrot in front of the donkey dream but if possible yes of course. <BR>
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5. You discover that your wonderful one-year old child is, because of a mix-up at the hospital, not truly yours. Would you want to exchange the child to try to correct the mistake?<BR>
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Yes I would want my own child not someone else’s. Of course I would want to know the child that I had for one year forever but I would want my own first.<BR>
<BR>
6. Do you think that Earth will be a better or worse place 100 years from now?<BR>
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One can only HOPE that we will become wiser and turn around all the blatant mistakes that we are making (Thank you George Bush for NOTHING) If not we will perish and had best find another planet soon.<BR>
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7. Would you accept 1 million dollars to leave the country and never step foot in it again? <BR>
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NEVER!<BR>
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8. Which sex do you think has it easier in our culture? Have you ever wished you were of the opposite sex? <BR>
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When I was young, I wanted to be a guy. I hated the way they were allowed to adventure and for my own sake I had to be careful (but that was as a child and teenager) Now if we don’t let the Brittanys and the Bushwackers of the world and cheap plastic surgery (Join the Army and get a boob job so you can get them blown off in Iraq.) turn us into the vapid airheads, we are fast becoming the dumb/dumber and dullard laughing stocks of the world. I don't want to be a man, not for all the tea in China, I just think more women need to be making BIG decisions about this earth and it's peoples. <BR>
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9. You are given the power to kill a person by thinking of their death and repeating the word "good-bye" twice. People would die a natural death, and nobody would ever suspect you. Are their any situations in which you would use this power?<BR>
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That would be delicious and yes, there are many child molesters, murderers, maniacs and certain politicians that I could get rid of with just a blink of the eye. How interesting would that be huh? YES, bet you can’t guess who would be first….hahahahahahah (just kidding of course, Just hold their legs apart and rip them in half like King Solman) hahaha (The devil made me say it)<BR>
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10. Whom do you admire most besides yourself? In what way does that person inspire you? <BR>
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Mother Teresa was my idol. She stood up to the pope and was scared of no one. She talked up to POWER not down to it.<BR>
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11. If at birth, you could select the profession that your child would later pursue, would you do so? What profession?<BR>
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My mother wanted my son to be a minister…eee gads no, I wanted him to be something that would sway the masses in a way to make them happier and healthier, more like a great writer or something to do with music that would be remembered forever. <BR>
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12. You have the chance to meet someone with whom you can have the most satisfying love imaginable--the stuff of dreams. Sadly, you know that in six months, the person will die. Knowing the pain that would follow, would you still want to meet the person and fall in love?<BR>
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Knowing that everything you touch in this life follows you deeply embedded in the next consciousness, YES.<BR>
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13. Do you prefer being around men or women? Do your closest friends tend to be men or women? <BR>
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I love talking to the younger generation male and female about anything.  It used to be and still is for that matter men for certain, exceptional ones that you can pick the brains of. Most women I know were too involved in vapid talk that bores me senseless.  Women are so involved with raising children and family issues, or what their bodies, hair, and makeup look like they rarely have time to think outside of the box. I like smart women that are not scared to speak their minds or talk up to the powers that be. The kind that dare to make a difference in whatever way they can, this still being a mans world. <BR>
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Thanks Jon....now where are your answers?<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=13">B.K.</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

Solomon was the way it should be spelled. And I do think raising children and family issues are vastly important, it's just women tend to get pushed back when it comes to making decisions (about their own bodies or for tham matter anything)  <BR>
<BR>
bk
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1139">jwb71913</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

Many of the rules for the written word, especially, are not merely a matter of blind tradition or tired convention but in real and demonstrable ways affect the readability and, therefore, the impact of our writing.<BR>
<BR>
Amen Tanq.  <BR>
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Kirk also hit it when he said "And it's probably not a coincidence that Tanq is such a reliablely solid poet and has such a respect for the formalities of language".  <BR>
<BR>
It's often not enough to just bleed on the page, it sometimes takes a love of language to convey a "depth of emotion" in written form.<BR>
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As someone who developed a love of language through reading words on the printed page, I am sometimes distressed by my son's disregard for the joy of reading.  I really think he could be a better writer than most if he was not so lazy about the rules that shouldn't be broken.<BR>
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I recall a time when my essays were written in pen, and corrections were allowed only with a complete rewrite on fresh paper.  The only spellcheck I had was my own eyes, and a cruel and dictatorial English 101 teacher made sure I used it.  I still thank that horrid old woman every day.<BR>
<BR>
Jim
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=1139">jwb71913</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

Oops, That should have read;<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
"And it's probably not a coincidence that Tanq is such a reliablely (sic) solid poet and has such a respect for the formalities of language". <BR>
<BR>
:-)
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=339">jack</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

hmm rules.. and why would we do poetry but for the simple reason to circumvent the rules? don need no stinkin rules lol ah well but before i digress how about a simple statement that i only use these words to ping off emotional responses in a clatter-clack manner in order to elicit feelings of otherness that might just sorta suggest that no matter how scatter brained my words might be yet they still connect... <BR>
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lol heh any hoot<BR>
back under mah rock<BR>
jack<BR>

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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=69">Savannah Haze</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

All of you "sticklers" for punctuation and such should pick up a copy of "Eats Shoots and Leaves."  I have enjoyed it both as an English teacher and a lover of my native language.  
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=13">B.K.</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

That's why a lot of people don't write, because they can't do it perfectly, which a lot of famous writers will tell you is hogwash. This is what you have editors for. Gives them something to do. (A real job ha, bless their pea picky hearts) I once did editing for an insurance company doctors phone book. Nothing creative just cut and dry spelling and punctuation and word use. It was an awful job.(My eyes would cross and I even once fell asleep..ha) I think it's words and how they are put together that count. Some fine writing has come from wordsmiths with little punctuation and or some bad spelling and grammer. <BR>
  The biggest problem I have is after writing and spell checking on word, changing something while posting and mispelling it. It makes me crazy...ha Sometimes you can set and look at it for a long time and not see the grammatical mistakes. Still better to write than not and try to learn as you go along. I get a monthly newsletter from writers on the net that gives grammer and punctuation lessons plus all kinds of hints to writers. I read it every month but have never taken a class. (will post the site next issue so you can see it too.)<BR>
<BR>
bk  
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=13">B.K.</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

You know I put that through spell check and it didn't pick up grammar. <BR>
<BR>
bk
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=12">Tanqueray Cowboy</a><BR>
Date: 28 July 2004<P>

"And it's probably not a coincidence that Tanq is such a reliablely solid poet and has such a respect for the formalities of language" <BR>
<BR>
Wow, Kirk... thanks for the kind words. "A reliably solid poet," huh?  I'm a poet?  Man, I just write... spill words onto the screen.  The poetry is in the heart of the reader.  There have been many writers who've passed <BR>
through these parts who'd out poem me with one pen tied behind their back!<BR>
<BR>
But about those "Formalities" of language...  I'm not advocating strict formality or  strict adherence to rules.  By that measure I'd hardly be a "reliably solid poet."  I break the rules constantly, especially punctuation.  Sometimes by oversight, sometimes by ignorance and other times on purpose.<BR>
<BR>
If any constructive point can be distilled from my rant it's this:  try to understand the rules so you can break them more EFFECTIVELY.  Understand your audience, your medium and your message then follow your heart.<BR>
<BR>
I'll now interrupt this sermon for the following message:<BR>
<BR>
There's some rockin' work being posted recently!<BR>
<BR>
Misti... your work really does shine when you're down.  The sad paradox many an artist has lived with.  Keep writing.  Keep living.  Keep being yourself -- whoever that might be at the moment.  For some reason I can't quite figure out, I especially like <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2004.07.27.14.19.4511">Fan Letter To Various Dead Stars</a>.  Maybe it's the Dylan reference, or maybe it's just damn fine prose.<BR>
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There are a couple of new voices I've got to applaud...<BR>
Brian/Quixote (<a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2004.07.28.00.02.17115">in the middle</a>) and Jane Rain (<a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2004.07.28.02.38.22586">H A T E</a>, <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2004.07.28.23.04.14363">Cry => Slash => Nothing</a>)...  Strong words and distinctive styles, both of you.  Welcome!<BR>
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Lastly... another fantastic new voice: pandorasplight.<BR>
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<a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2004.07.25.15.58.25429">the unspoken</a> blew me away!<BR>
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Coming on the heels of the recent technical discuss on this board,  I'd encourage you to check your spelling.  Don't worry too much about punctuation, though...  it looks like you're well on your way to successfully throwing out those conventions.  If you go that way, I'd encourage you to play more with line length, line breaks and word/line spacing.  I frequently use the actual placement -- the layout -- of the words on the page for my pacing and emphasis.  <BR>
<BR>
~tanq
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