From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=74">Echolocation</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Perhaps the point is that there's very little difference in going through life flouting all society's opinions/values/what-have-you, and going through life slavishly devoted to them.  In both instances, it's an unhealthy attention being paid to the opinions of others, and either way you're defining yourself in terms of society instead of in terms of your own spirit.  Remember the 60's?  For some people, _everything_ "Establishment" was verboten, even the good stuff like being gainfully employed!<BR>
<BR>
I believe that the best one can do is to try not to define oneself in terms of society's pre-existing expectations AT ALL, neither by being a rebel who denies them at every turn nor by being a mindless lemming.  Recognize what societal conventions have to offer, take the good, leave the bad, and add it to the mix as you form your own character.
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=48">Laurel Ahlfeld</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

~*~B.K.~*~ Thanks for the advice about taking care of sore muscles about a week back! It really helped. I look like such a mess with heat pads, icey hot, elevated legs and a couple bottles of advil next to me. Ha! How goes life?? I've been enjoying all of your recent works! You inspire me so! And the dogs?? I've got a new one coming to live with me. I already have three. Peanut and Buster showed up at my doorstep around the same time probably seven years ago. I was hoping a small female would come along next so I could name her Parfait and have a cute joke. Unfortunately a big, stupid, male, yellow lab named Wickit was my next arrival. But fortune has finally smiled down in the strangest of ways. My mother is a vet and found a tiny female dog a few weeks ago with a pole rammed nearly through her. She's healing nicely and is scheduled to come to live with me in three days. Peanut Buster Parfait is finally complete(with a little Wickit on the side). <BR>
<BR>
~*~Violet~*~ Your words are very wise! Like you, my feelings are that the only person you'll have in the end, no matter what, is yourself. And while it's important to value your loved ones and establish give and take with them, putting yourself out shouldn't be an option. Society is imaginary and mirage-like to me. I know that sounds ridiculous, but I'll explain. What is real or right to me may not be to someone else, say Mark for instance. He believes in society because he wants to. He's comfortable with looking at humans as a group. I, on the other hand, prefer to examine each person that comes into my life on an individual basis. "Society" is just a shortcut to summing up a set of beliefs that have been shoe-horned into our heads as "common." These beliefs aren't true to me and therefore will never be real to me either. You needn't defend your thoughts, because they are real and true to you. You've got a good grip on things. And to repeat your own advice, who cares what others think? <BR>
<BR>

<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=74">Echolocation</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

So much for the opinion portion of our show.  Now for the comments...<BR>
<BR>
Jon -- <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2002.01.27.17.26.20666">It's Hard Being A Man</a> -- beautiful!  The Economist (British magazine) had an article last month on "The Downsized Male" which said some of these things (though less lyrically!), and bemoaning that men are forced now to be "all things to all people," which they never had to do before.  One gets the distinct impression that in the sexual revolution men have gotten the short end of the stick...<BR>
<BR>
Mark -- <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2002.01.27.21.23.26818">ADVICE TO AN ARTIST</a> -- this one got printed out and stuck on my wall above my computer.  Love it!  And the two Rilke pieces; he's one of my favorite poets of all time, I only wish I could read German so I could read it in the original...<BR>
<BR>
Lydia -- <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2002.01.24.11.43.8223">1/24/02</a> -- impressive.  "I walk to change position/you walk to keep from standing still" is a succinct evocation of two very different approaches to life<BR>
<BR>
Kendra -- <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2002.01.23.20.38.7427">The Married Lover</a> -- now you've started me on a quest to find out more about this Mr Patmore!<BR>
<BR>
MichaelT(educated-guessing) -- <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2002.01.24.01.56.7395">What does a woman want?</a> -- well said, but I do think you're basing this on an awfully small segment of the population!  There are in fact plenty of straightforward women out there who aren't at all interested in forcing a guy to play Karnak the Magnificent (uh, that's "be a mind-reader" to you younger folks...)  Perhaps (though I don't know how old you are) it has something to do with the age group you're looking in?
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=74">Echolocation</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Oops -- my intro ("so much for the opinion...") referred, of course to MY previous post and not to Laurel's, which beat mine onto the board by a split-second...  Didn't want you to think I was knocking your comments, Laurel :)
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=48">Laurel Ahlfeld</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

~*~Echolocation~*~ Ha! Isn't timing a funny thing? I'll try to retract my claws...j/k Don't worry! No problems here :) 
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=436">Jon</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

About this whole "I don't care what people think about me" thing.  It reminds of this conversation I had with my little brother who is just entering high school this year.  I asked him if he cared what the kids at school thought about him.<BR>
<BR>
This was his answer;<BR>
<BR>
"If I didn't care what people thought about me then I wouldn't need to point out or say that I don't care what people think about me then now would I?"<BR>
<BR>
So...<BR>
<BR>
The piece I wrote "It's Hard Being A Man" was merely a sarcastic observation on what I consider to be typical expectations of the male species and not something based on myself really.  It was just something that was fun to write.  Though I'm glad it sparked up something to talk about in here.
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=50">MichaelT()</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Quickly...<BR>
SCQueen ~ Madame, it is obvious that there is a difference between a queen and a princess. The southern belle stereotype was a princess. Queens have strength, character, and responsibilities. Belle's were helpless without a man. I can't stand helpless women. I'll help them. But I can't stand them.<BR>
<BR>
Echolocation ~ Ah...well, I am only 25..That may have something to do with it as I meet women between 23 and 27...when I'm 30 I'm sure I'll meet plenty of sensible women. :-) And I'll probably have grown up plenty in the meantime....<BR>
<BR>
<BR>

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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=566">Mark McNabb</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

So, there's this guy named Jon who writes good stuff and submits it...then he gets a bunch of "feedback" about "not being so down on himself" or "not to succumb to society's expectations," mostly based on his poetry without any knowledge of his real life.<BR>
<BR>
So, then I add a few comments attacking the whole notion of "society's expectations" and then I get a bunch of posts that clearly reveal that SOME people don't READ very well.  They may WRITE extremely well, they just don't read well.  Or they get too easily plugged in to other's opinions or something.  Anyway...<BR>
<BR>
All I was pointing out was that there are no TRUTHS to this notion that society has expectations.  Society does not have expectations - it is all fabricated and marketed and manipulated, but not real.  The only human truths are those which have broad agreement amongst other humans, and even THAT is fabricated...blah blah blah.  My ONLY point was for poor old Jon to BE HIMSELF in spite of these so-called "societal-expectations." AND to never DISREGARD these expectations...but I never said anything about giving in to them.  I'm just bothered by people who rail on and on about "society's expectations."  As for me personally, Laurel, I don't "believe" in society (except to the degree that it gets me an A in sociology) but I do accept and embrace that it exists in all it's myriad forms and versions...to do otherwise would be just plain foolish.  Go break a bunch of "society's" traffic laws (a.k.a. expectations) and see how far you get.  Simple example, but you can apply it to so much.  People who rail on about society's expectations are the very ones who perpetuate the myth.  Society is simply an easy way to describe sharing this planet with other humans.  I believe in mySELF first and foremost, and I believe in PEOPLE when they prove themselves to be believeable.  And I try to believe the unbelieveable every chance I get, just to f*ck with the universe.  So to the reading challenged, pardon me but you missed my point (one that ain't even personal, Violet).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Here is a good one for extra credit:<BR>
<BR>
When you visit the Blender, where do you go first?  The Board or the New Submissions?<BR>
<BR>
The Board is about opinions, the rest is about art.  We need more art and less opinion.  Mine included.<BR>
<BR>
Have a nice Monday!
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=566">Mark McNabb</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

PS -<BR>
<BR>
"The biggest liar in the world is THEY SAY."<BR>
DOUGLAS MALLOCH<BR>
<BR>
"Its name is Public Opinion.  It is held in reverence.  It settles everything.  Some think it is the voice of God.  Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul."<BR>
MARK TWAIN
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=2">scqueen</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Oh Michael T ~ You are wise beyond your years. 
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=493">Kendra143</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

I've got to say I really love the subtle way the Board and the New Submissions intertwine with one another...when I started coming to the site and reading different peoples' works, I would read some of the comments on the board, and found that they added a great new dimension, offering a little insight sometimes into people's personality/opinions, which can explain why people write what they do...<BR>
<BR>
Therefore, reading this discussion on society between a few people has been enlightening and a little amusing.  It's not like the Love Blender Board is some teen chat room - everyone on here is heavily opinionated and in touch with their emotions and the inner workings of their heart.  I guess the occasional "clash of the titans" is to be expected!
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From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=493">Kendra143</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

In response to Jon's "It's Hard Being a Man" ~~<BR>
<BR>
I think a lot of what you said is very true.  For instance, I am continually surprised to discover how young some of the guys writing on here are (I expected Michael T to be much older than 25 somehow).  Not that I'm old - younger than 25 to be sure...but I guess I just never thought of guys in their early/mid twenties as being the kind that could express emotion and love the exquisite way people like Michael T, Jon, Mark McNabb, kevin urenda, the guppy and countless others do.  Obviously I have been carrying around some very flawed opinons, and I'd like to thank everyone I've mentioned for proving me wrong, and making me want to find someone just like one of you.
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=566">Mark McNabb</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Great poem, Lydia.<BR>
<BR>
All the references here re: INTEGRITY reminded me of three things that make for satisfying romantic relationships.<BR>
<BR>
LOVE is...<BR>
<BR>
VISION - having an acute sense of the possible.  It is seeing what others don't see.<BR>
<BR>
COMMITMENT - what transforms a promise into reality.  It is the words that speak boldly of your intentions.  And the actions which speak louder than the words.  It is making the time when there is none.  Coming through time after time after time, year after year after year.  Commitment is the stuff character is made of; the power to change the face of things.  It is the daily triumph of integrity over skepticism.<BR>
<BR>
ACCOUNTABILITY - taking responsibility before the fact, rather than after the fact.  It is taking a stand, and standing by it.  When those who are accountable are right, they take the credit.  When they're wrong, they take the heat.  It's a fair exchange.  Accountability is a way of living.  Those who practice it have an unspoken respect for each other.  And a visible disdain for the absentminded apologizers, mumbling excuse-makers, and trembling fence-sitters who run from INTEGRITY as if it were the plague.<BR>

<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=205">Violet</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Mark~ Though I took what appeared to be a direct response to what I wrote personally, I didn't take much offense.  I simply thought that you (and likely others, too) didn't quite grasp what I was getting at. That's why I clarified.  You seem so very intelligent and you have a gift for poetic words.  It's great fun to converse/debate/share ideas with you. Thanks. :-) <BR>
oh yeah, I read the new subs first. ;-)
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=614">Lydia</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Thanks Mark M.  I agree with your three points - and for me love is so much more (but including) those three.  I guess you could say that I was 'damaged goods'.  I was reading the link and saw your entry and my past just caught up to me before I could stop.<BR>
<BR>
Echolocation - thank you for your interest in 1/24.  It is part of a journal I keep.  Never make the same mistakes...never forget your history.<BR>
<BR>
Lydia
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=436">Jon</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Micheal T<BR>
<BR>
Thanks.  I'm glad you liked Experience, that mean's a lot coming from you.  I really admire your work.  Espcially Deep Fried Chicken.<BR>
<BR>
Echolation<BR>
<BR>
Yes, being a man is tough...but lets not get into that :-).  Anyway, I'd like to see more works from you.  Pretty please?<BR>
<BR>
Kendra<BR>
<BR>
Me?  Mature?  LOL thanks, I'm glad you think so.  I think I just think too much thats all. :-)<BR>
<BR>
Violet and Mark<BR>
<BR>
Thanks for your views on society, self, etc etc.  I enjoy reading both of your views and well they are both very interesting.  I'm thankful for the fact that if I ever wish to have a serious discussion in here about something I can rely on some to tackle it along with me.
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=205">Violet</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Hey Laurel~ You're sweet, thank you. :-)
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=566">Mark McNabb</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Lydia - Those three items were just part of the 762 things needed for a satisfying relationship, they just happen to be in MY top 10.  But - damaged goods?  Aren't we all, to some degree?  We're either expanding or contracting, healing or hurting...but never static or inert.  I just hope you are healing more than you are hurting.<BR>
<BR>
Laurel - Your "Beautiful" is wonderful!  <BR>
<BR>
Jon - "What Hath JON Wrought?" ("Wrote?")  Thanks for fueling the conversation.  And for the Steve Martin piece from THE JERK - hilarious!<BR>
<BR>
Violet - I am an avid fan and reader of your work, and I thoroughly enjoyed our "debate" - can't wait until the next one!<BR>
<BR>
Kendra - Thanks for the compliment.<BR>
<BR>
I would like to invite each of you over this weekend for dinner and a lively game of Intellectual Twister!
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=8">Ali</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Mark~<BR>
<BR>
I love that "Alice in Wonderland" quote you submitted...<BR>
That actually is one of my favorites couple of lines from the book...*smile*<BR>
<BR>
Love and hidden mysteries, Ali
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=614">Lydia</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Yes, Mark, I do think that by the very fact that we are products of our environments, we are all damaged goods to some extent.  I just felt that my recent issues made me more sensitive to your entry.  I am healing, however, I will never be whole again.<BR>
<BR>
Lydia
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=4">TJ Holland</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

CAgirl ~ <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2002.01.28.15.18.20582">Coffee or Not</a> reminded very much of a poem on here a while back. It was good! Funny how almost meeting someone can evoke a multitude of emotions and thoughts, huh?<BR>
<BR>
McNabb ~ Your mind is a wonder! 'sa pleasure too.<BR>
<BR>
-Teej
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=615">CAgirl</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

I am so embarrassed!  My sincerest apologies to Twinkle:<BR>
<a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2001.12.01.04.19.12567">picking him</a> is her poem, not mine (Coffee or Not) as it was posted today.  [TJ - all praise belongs to Twinkle, not me!] I copied her poem as it reminded me of something that happened to me and sparked inspiration.  When submitting my poem, I accidentally cut and pasted her poem instead of mine.<BR>
<BR>
My poem <a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2002.01.28.18.54.24645">Near Miss</a> should have appeared instead.  Again, my apologies (and a promise to watch my cutting and pasting!)  Thank you all for sharing your heartfelt words and emotions.
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=566">Mark McNabb</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

<BR>
<a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2002.01.28.18.44.19114">Society</a><BR>
<BR>
Bravo, Bacardi!  (or is it "Brava, Bacardi?")
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=48">Laurel Ahlfeld</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

~*~Mark McNabb~*~ Well, I suppose I should have clarified more. I wasn't trying to "attack" you. I merely found the discussion interesting and wanted to throw my own opinion out there for others to chew on. I highly admire your writing and opinions. It's nice to take a look at the flip side sometimes! Oh, and thank you for your kind words about "Beautiful!"<BR>
<BR>
make a great day!<BR>
Laurel
<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=4">TJ Holland</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

Oh me, oh my! <BR>
I lost myself and I'm not sure why.<BR>
There's a cameL got a hump or two.<BR>
Are you he, or is he you? <BR>
He's just arrived here recently<BR>
You've been here a while, I can see.<BR>
Are you maybe more than THREE?<BR>
A bright misfit in society.<BR>
A question, a query, an answer back,<BR>
So many you's it's hard to keep track.<BR>
It's fine to play if just for a lark<BR>
When I shoot will I hit the Mark?<BR>
Go on and have a bit o' fun<BR>
Call me up, we can down together a shot o' rum.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(Yes, this was meant for the Board! how fun!)<BR>
<BR>
-Teej<BR>
<BR>

<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=8">Ali</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

BK~<BR>
<a href="/blend/wv.cgi?id=2002.01.28.21.41.23949">A Woman's Worth </a>was fantastic...Great writing!!<BR>
<BR>
And I love that Alicia Keys song, by the way...Not to mention Mae West...*smile*<BR>
<BR>
Love and hidden mysteries, Ali<BR>

<HR>
From: <a href="/blend/av.cgi?id=452">twinkle</a><BR>
Date: 28 January 2002<P>

CAgirl - don't worry about it! i liked "near miss" ;).  And - coincidence - I am a CAlifornia girl too!<BR>

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